pokergrrl
Posted: Wed, 11/09/2005 - 2:16am

In this lovely game of 'free poker' can the bar or establishment, that poker pub is playing in, demand that in order for one to play they must make a minimum two drink purchase or one drink and a meal? I understand that the bars pay poker pub and not everyone will eat and/or drink, but does it cross a line to demand it. Does that then change the 'free poker' to 'two-drink-minimum poker'?



JessiJamesH
Posted: Wed, 11/09/2005 - 1:41pm

It is my understanding that this is actually illegal, as it can be construed as a "buy in". I played in the State Fair tournament & they had to refund every players fair admission for this reason.

I play regularly in West Phoenix & I am not aware of any location where this is required. :? Has this actually happened? If so, where :?:



pokergrrl
Posted: Wed, 11/09/2005 - 3:00pm

I played at the State fair as well and was refunded my entrance fee. This bar, Exit 7, implemented this "requirement" on Saturday 11/5 and again on 11/6.



JessiJamesH
Posted: Wed, 11/09/2005 - 3:53pm

Exit 7 is one of the few places where I have never played, and I would refuse to play there if they require a purchase. There are enough other locations to choose from on Saturday & Sunday. You may want to address this with Doug & Stephanie. If it is, in fact, illegal, it could negatively affect the establishment & Poker Pub :!:

While I completely disagree with the "requirement" to purchase something in order to play, I understand the reason the locations pay Poker Pub to host tournaments is to increase business. If everyone played without buying anything, there would be no justification for the location to bear the expense. For this reason, I usually DO purchase food and/or drinks. This is to support both the establishment, and Poker Pub. It appears to me a majority of players make purchases, as well, which makes a "requirement" seem gratuitous. :idea:



JessiJamesH
Posted: Wed, 11/09/2005 - 4:11pm

Another thought: I know there are quite a few bars that require a minimum purchase to watch College & NFL football games. This "requirement" is for everyone in the bar.

Bars must pay a hefty fee for subscriptions such as ESPN GamePlan & NFL Sunday Ticket. A minimum purchase "requirement" helps to offset these fees.

If this is what Exit 7 is actually charging for, then everyone in the bar should be held to the same "requirement", not just poker players. This may also circumvent any gaming laws.



pokergrrl
Posted: Wed, 11/09/2005 - 11:27pm

I have been playing at Exit 7 since the Poker Pub started there and this past weekend was the first time that they implemented this new rule. It is not that I have a problem purchasing, because I have always purchased from this place. They don't have satellite, so it couldn't be that reason and they don't have a lot of high dollar TV's, some of the ones they have probably need to be replaced. I'm just wanting to know if they can do it. It won't stop me from playing there; I just want to make sure that Poker Pub doesn't get put in a bad position because I do enjoy playing their league.

I am wondering if there are other bars, establishments, and/or venues that do this and yet still have 'free' poker.

And as far as I know, it was on Sunday where they enforced it on the whole bar, instead just poker players.



JessiJamesH
Posted: Tue, 11/22/2005 - 5:14pm

I discussed this issue with Stephanie, & it seems that if the requirement is enforced on everyone in the bar, it is legal. I disagree with it, in principle, and will not play at Exit 7.



ACE
Posted: Sat, 11/26/2005 - 2:39pm

well.....the bar only requries that while poker is being played.....and nothing is posted anywhere.....the bartender just announces it at the start of the game.....also it is not announced every time....it WAS announced on sunday and not on saturday last week.....its shity if you ask me...................

...........late...............



pokergrrl
Posted: Sat, 11/26/2005 - 4:25pm

Actually it was announced on Sunday, but was not on Saturday.



nathan
Posted: Mon, 11/28/2005 - 11:35am

OK enough whinning!! Yeah, it sucks that a bar may have to have a drink or food minimun to poker players...but lets stop a minute and think about why they have to do this!!!! Too many people are going out to play without one dime in their pocket, and then sit around and complain about not receiving their FREE- WATER quick enough.

Bar owners are having to step up to the plate because there is a large amount of players who feel that they can loiter in a bar or resuraunt for 6-7 hours without purchacing anything but a coffee or soda. My question to those players is would you walk into the same bar/resturaunt with a crossword puzzle and sit down for 7 hours and not order anything!!! Most humans would feel a little uncomfortable doing that!!

Bottom line is that if the bar is "suggesting" you order 2 drinks or food and a drink, that's the least you should be doing anyway to support the owners who GIVE you FREE poker!!

I may sound a little bitter, and I am!!! A few of my favorite places to play have shut down for this exact reason...free-loaders showing up, costing the bars money and being a pain in the a** the entire time!!! I understand my role in this game...I play for free, win great prizes and spend money at the bar!!!

This was not ment to offend anyone...just my rant!



pokergrrl
Posted: Mon, 11/28/2005 - 12:14pm

I understand what you are saying; there are many people who whine at a glass of water not being free. My complaint is, is it LEGAL, because as far as I know, and this is being quoted from an employee with the Arizona Gaming Commission "If a bar is enforcing a two drink minimum in order to play free poker they are breaking the law". Because of gaming laws they can't legally do it. That was why those who played at the State Fair got there entrance fee to the fair returned to them. I don't have a problem buying drinks and/or food, I do it whenever I play, it pays the bar, which pays poker pub which allows them to continue to offer there service. It is about the legality of there rule.
When this particular bar announced the drink minimum, other patrons of the bar not playing poker cheered and clapped because they knew it was geared at the poker players and this included the bartender who announced it. Also, it was only enforced why the poker was going on, after 7pm when poker was finished the 2 drink minimum was lifted as well as before 1pm before the game started this rule didn't exists. So I guess my post is directed at the legality of what they are doing.



ACE
Posted: Tue, 11/29/2005 - 6:16pm

nathan wrote:
OK enough whinning!! Yeah, it sucks that a bar may have to have a drink or food minimun to poker players...but lets stop a minute and think about why they have to do this!!!! Too many people are going out to play without one dime in their pocket, and then sit around and complain about not receiving their FREE- WATER quick enough.

Bar owners are having to step up to the plate because there is a large amount of players who feel that they can loiter in a bar or resuraunt for 6-7 hours without purchacing anything but a coffee or soda. My question to those players is would you walk into the same bar/resturaunt with a crossword puzzle and sit down for 7 hours and not order anything!!! Most humans would feel a little uncomfortable doing that!!

Bottom line is that if the bar is "suggesting" you order 2 drinks or food and a drink, that's the least you should be doing anyway to support the owners who GIVE you FREE poker!!

I may sound a little bitter, and I am!!! A few of my favorite places to play have shut down for this exact reason...free-loaders showing up, costing the bars money and being a pain in the a** the entire time!!! I understand my role in this game...I play for free, win great prizes and spend money at the bar!!!

This was not ment to offend anyone...just my rant!

also my complaint is not about the money i was spending money there way before the rule was announced.....

bars start doing this is just the first step .....who knows what they will try to enforce next...

.......late..........



Scott
Posted: Tue, 12/06/2005 - 5:55pm

I want to chime in on this one too and echo some of Nathan's comments...

While I realize that the true subject is whether or not it is legal for an establishment to charge a minimum for "free poker" there's a subtext here of the player's role in supporting the bar vs. how nasty an establishment is in enforcing such minimums. My understanding is that Arizona is pretty strict on this and no poker can be played where a "cover" is charged unless it has some kind of exemption such as a charity event.

In the case of Exit 7, I have also been playing there on weekends since the bar started hosting games and in that time have come to know both the owner and staff. They are all great people and I have witnessed their dilemma first hand. The owner started poker not only because he wanted to add patrons to the bar but because he liked the game himself. Exit 7 is a true neighborhood bar without a lot of the overhead associated with bigger fancier places, and as such, I am sure the run pretty close to the financial bubble as it is. Most the weekend crowd are in fact NASCAR fans which poker has been slowly displacing, having the effect of exchanging one customer base for another instead of an additive effect. The bar has VERY reasonable drink and food specials, so it does not break the bank to buy a little something. I have been at tables where "customers" freak out because they are charges a buck or two for water. One guy even threatened to complain to the state liquor board for charging for water, which he claimed to be illegal in Arizona.

I play at several places through out the West Phoenix region and there are a huge variety of establishments where the ratio of people with conscience intentions to support the bar varies with the people without means or such intentions. I think Exit 7 is an example of one of those places that got a higher percentage than usual of those who won't or can't buy a lousy pop, beer, or appetizer. Other places on that end of the spectrum have been forced to stop poker because it was not profitable. Other places struggle because they look at the expense of hosting poker as a marketing expense and are trying to judge what kind of impact it has on their overall business vs. losing a little on poker night. I know other establishments have started more covert policies than Exit 7 by limiting refills on soft drinks or providing bottled water for a charge. A good number of establishments to quite well on poker night because the majority of the crowd would not be there otherwise and they buy.

The point is this...

If there are too many people unwilling to support the establishment hosting free poker, there won't be free poker!

So I agree that taking actions such as what Exit 7 did probably violates state gaming laws and might be bad for the Pokerpub in the short term. The long term implications are the same if bars can't turn a profit from the crowd and current venues shutdown faster than new ones open up. It's bad for the Pokerpub and its bad for us.

BTW. The Exit 7 owner told me that if each person at an eight-player table bought on average one soft drink, he could break even on the table. Now where else can you go and get 3 hours of entertainment for the cost of a soda.

Hell, buy two and stay for the second game!!! 8)



armand33m
Posted: Tue, 12/06/2005 - 7:56pm

I agree that people supporting the bars is important if we want to continue to have venues for our free poker. Important as it is however, that doesnt give these bars the right to advertise poker as free, and then charge a minimum, based upon current Arizona laws.

Also, based on the math you mentioned near the bottom of the page, that would mean that he is only paying pokerpub $16-$20 a table to host these tourneys. That cant possibly be right, as then pokerpub would be losing money on a regular basis to host the events, once you figure in their overhead. Maybe the bar owner was simply trying to make it sound a bit better... I dont know. I do know pokerpub wouldnt be going as strong as they are if they were clearing only $100 a night per bar before expenses.

I support every bar I play in, and take pride in that fact, but refuse to give the evil eye to non-spenders or support a bar's right to create minimums on FREE poker night. I said it before, I'll say it again, if a bar isnt clearing a profit as a result of the poker nights, then they shouldnt be hosting. Its really a simple business issue.



whozpubbin
Posted: Wed, 12/07/2005 - 8:20pm

Scott you are so right. I wish more people would realize this. They complain about the fact they may have to spend a dollar or two on a glass of water or coffee.

What I have discovered though is that the people who will absolutely spend nothing while playing poker, are the first to complain when one of the places decides not to have pokerpub any more because they are not profiting from it. They blame it on everyone else or an incident that may have happened in the bar. When in all actuality, it is thier fault because the place is being cancelled. Then, the ones who actually support the bars and spend money cannot attend every night like the ones who spend nothing do. It is quite unaffordable for those who spend money to spend $10 to $25 per night every night of the week!! The complainers need to wake up and support the pokerpub financially also instead of coming to play, bully the tables and take the prizes and rack up the points because they can definitely afford to come everynight (doesn't cost them anything). If you can't afford a minimum of $5 to $8 per night playing poker - then don't come at all.

So, I think that maybe it would be okay to place a minimum requirement on the players. These would alleviate a lot of the people who come in just to cause problems and would allow the real players to play real poker. I have seen so many times where the people who don't spend a dime come in night after night after night - every session - bully the tables, get the prizes, then sell them to someone else to make money. They are using pokerpub to make profits for themselves.

I go in to play poker, support the bars/restaurants and have a good time. I get tired of changing locations constantly when I am one who will wholeheartly support each place of poker playing.

The abuse of players using the pokerpub and causing those of us who care to suffer is getting pretty ridiculous. I am sure that it is getting more difficult for pokerpub management to find places to replace the ones who terminate the pokerpub because of it not being cost effective. Before long, you will see the end of pokerpub. Therefore, I am all in favor of a minimum charge. It would certainly save me money and then maybe I could play more than once or twice a week.



Fizgizan
Posted: Wed, 12/14/2005 - 5:29pm

Welcome too the wonderful world of capitalism......? I like beer......and o yea the knuts :lol:



Nothappy
Posted: Thu, 02/02/2006 - 6:11pm

The one thing that should never happen, is for a tournament director to ask a waitress to tell them who doesn't buy thier fair share and tap them on the shoulder in the middle of a hand and call them out on it. Some people don't drink alcohol or don't drink during the week because they have to get up the next morning and teach thier kids in school and don't want to walk into the classroom with a hangover. Is poker pub supporing alcoholism? I'm a little ticked about what happened last night. A couple of the people that were singled out do buy soda's and a appetizers regularly. It was embarrassing to them and they were mad. Maybe if you are in danger of losing an establishment you should adjust your price structure so your not gouging the bar owners.



thepokerpubstl
Posted: Thu, 02/02/2006 - 8:35pm

As you all know, the reason bar owners host FREE POKER events is to promote sales. If there are no sales we will be no more FREE POKER

The Poker Pub and the bar owners understand that not everyone drinks everynight...that's a good thing, otherwise we'd be holding events at AA meetings...but there are other ways to patronize the establishment without consuming alcohol...come early for dinner or try appetizer during the game.

While many of The Poker Pub players understand that their role in keeping Free Poker is patronizing the establishment (this is seen throughout many of the threads on this board), there are still many players that may not understand how the whole thing works. In St Louis, we try to educate the players every night by attaching a "letter to the players" discussing this issue, to every nightly newsletter and schedule. At some venues it is even attached to a list of the nightly specials.

While bar owners are estatic to see 6 full tables of poker players on an otherwise slow night....they do let us know if they have repeat players that come in and do not patronize. Here's the tricky part: Would you rather be informed by a Poker Pub employee that the bar is concerned about patronage issues or show up the next week to find out that poker is cancelled.

If the people that were "singled out" do patronize on a regular basis, they should approach the manager/owner and clear up and misconceptions.

This topic is always a little sticky, and when the owners do ask our staff for support, they are trained to handle it in the most tactfull way possible. It is an attempt to educate, not to point a finger..and if definately would not happen while a player was playing a hand.



Holycarp
Posted: Fri, 02/03/2006 - 3:16pm

I agree that players should not be singled out. I seen it happen and it can be embarrasing and also intimidating to them. Maybe a "pep talk" to the entire room prior to the start of the game would be more appropiate.



Dealer
Posted: Mon, 03/06/2006 - 11:50am

Does antone know how much the "BARS" pay poker pub to host an event. I assume it is alot of money. I know though that on a night poker is being played there are 40 to 100 extra people who are in the "BAR" most of which are paying customers. You should patronize the places you play,but what really burns me is non tippers your sever who is wading through a sea of people to bring your drink is barely making minimum wage and most are making what $2.30 an hour tip your seversthey're working hard for you.



dhoytinaz
Posted: Wed, 03/08/2006 - 9:38am

Here is what I like to do, and I think others should do it as well.
When I am in a bar to play poker, and I show up a little early to eat at the establishement, I like to let the server and/or manager know that I am enjoying the food/drink/service and that what brought me into their establishement was the poker pub. I esspecially like to do it when I am at a bar that I found through the pokerpub, but I am there on a night that there is not a poker game.
Just say something like, "Hey, I just wanted to let you know that I am here eating a dinner, having a few beers, and the reason I am here tonight is because I like to play poker with The Poker Pub. Thanks for hosting the game." or "I'm here tonight having a few drinks and dinner and the way that I was introduced to your restaraunt was because I came here one night to play poker...."
I think it could go a long way in improving the relationship between bar/restaraunt owner's and the poker pub.
Trust me, restaraunt managers hear all night from the people who have recieved bad service or food. They will be happy to hear that you are enjoying yourself and that their decision to pay the poker pub is what brought you in.

The best part about this idea is, just like the Poker Pub, it's completely free of charge to you!!

DaveHoyt



pokerman58
Posted: Wed, 04/19/2006 - 1:34pm

consider the bars point of view drinking water dirtys a glass must pay for cleaning no income the owner is there to make money or we would not be there to play but there should be a reasonable idea for both sides.



PokerMom
Posted: Wed, 04/19/2006 - 4:41pm

I agree with DHoytinAZ - and I do eat dinner there before poker on Fridays and Saturdays. During the week when I head there straight from work, I try to get a little something to eat and I tip the wait staff every time they refill my non-alcoholic drink.

If I don't have money to spend that night, (i.e., less than $5.00) I don't go out to play.



APMike
Posted: Thu, 04/27/2006 - 11:57am

This is a perfect example of a few bad apples can spoil the bunch. I had to give up drinking about 6 months ago, so I have seen both sides of this. I was the guy that played 4 to 5 nights a week and would spend about $30 to $60 a night. The big difference between everybody I see on here and with what their saying is. We all now of and see on a regular basis people that come in and order one soda or nothing at all and want to sit their and play all night. it is a well know fact that the bars are paying to hold these events. It will always boil down to one small fact. If the bars are making money they will continue to hold the events and if they are not then they wont. the Moral of the story is to know that if you like playing and you like playing at those establishments. it is best to go in knowing that you need to spend enough to cover the cost of your seat and it doesn't hurt to spend a little more to cover the people that don't



desertgator
Posted: Wed, 11/29/2006 - 7:01pm

The group my parents play with down in florida will give you extra chips in your stack if you buy drinks or food at the host establishment. It's not enough to really make it unfair (couple hundred for a tournament) but it is a nice reward for people who pay.



pokerpub
Posted: Thu, 11/30/2006 - 4:57pm

Although that's a great idea, it's called enticement...(giving away anything extra for spending money at the venue) and is illegal.



rashaan
Posted: Thu, 11/30/2006 - 8:24pm

I've been to bars several time just to eat on poker nights and many times there's not a table or chair to sit and eat at because of the tournament. Then when I look around at the players about half of them are drinking waters or nothing at all. I'm sure the bar owners and for that matter the leagues would rather cut down on that dead space and let paying customers use it.

I kind of like PokerMom's theory. If you don't have at least $5-$10 to spend that night, then why not just do something else and come out on a night you can support the bar and the league. It may hurt the sheer numbers of the league, but at least the bar is happy, which in turn keeps the league going.

Anyway, don't be pissed if i start trying to target and take out all you non-drinking, non-eating, free loading, space wasting poker snobs.



Malonious
Posted: Sun, 01/07/2007 - 8:51pm

I just moved to Sierra Vista from Nashville, Tn and what the bars there would do is to reward you with another 500 or 1000 chips on what you would order. I'd usually order food ( not for the free chips but because I needed some food ) and I thought that it's a good way to get people to order drinks or food. I'm not sure if I agree with a min. buy for free poker but if you have 40 people playing and only 5 people buy something then it is taking up space that could be used otherwise.



pokergrrl
Posted: Sun, 01/07/2007 - 10:17pm

Malonious wrote:
I just moved to Sierra Vista from Nashville, Tn and what the bars there would do is to reward you with another 500 or 1000 chips on what you would order. I'd usually order food ( not for the free chips but because I needed some food ) and I thought that it's a good way to get people to order drinks or food. I'm not sure if I agree with a min. buy for free poker but if you have 40 people playing and only 5 people buy something then it is taking up space that could be used otherwise.

As stated above by pokerpub

Quote:
Although that's a great idea, it's called enticement...(giving away anything extra for spending money at the venue) and is illegal.



gorillagamer
Posted: Mon, 01/08/2007 - 10:16am

pokerpub wrote:
Although that's a great idea, it's called enticement...(giving away anything extra for spending money at the venue) and is illegal.

Got a link showing that it's illegal? Just curious.