pokergrrl
Posted: Mon, 02/19/2007 - 11:58pm

Scenario: As some of you may already know, at final table 7 players left, blinds at 2K, 2K, 4K (small, small big due to previous hands). I am big blind with 4K in and I have 4K remaining. It comes to me and only one person had called, the first small blind. The second small blind folded. I have A9 off suit. I look over at the player's stack of chips and he too has 4K remaining. I make a move to go all in, thinking that he may fold since it is his last 4K and he is coming off the blinds. After I go all in, he moves a little black bag he had on the table and pulls out (2 or 3) 5K chips. I was completely blown away, and stated that you can not hide chips. The dealer even acknowledged that he didn't know he had the chips and he needs to keep his chips in view. I would not have made that move knowing he had 10-15K over me and would easily call any bet I made. I would have checked and seen the flop and made a move if I hit, folded to a bet if I didn't to try and get another round in at final table.

Outcome: His Q 7,no hesitation call, beat my A 9

Final Thought: By him hiding his chips, he is misleading the table into thinking he has a low stack. I think it is a definite form of cheating.

Thoughts? Opinions?



CheckitOut
Posted: Tue, 02/20/2007 - 2:17am

Hello: I was at the table when this happened and I thought he should have been forced to muck his cards, Period. There was no question he was "hiding" the chips. A verbal committment is a verbal committment EXCEPT if someone is cheating.

How would some of the owners of these venues have handled this situation?

Thank you!!



ohnoyouagain (not verified)
Posted: Tue, 02/20/2007 - 3:43am

I googled for a definitive answer but found only this - which I'll paraphrase:

Any attempt of hiding chips is against the rules, or at least against good poker etiquette. As a player you should make sure your high denomination chips are clearly visible and not hidden, not to mention off the table. Your opponent should easily be able to see how much you're playing with, since this information is vital when deciding how to play.

I also found the following link (originally published in Card Player 2005/05/01) by "First Lady of Poker" Linda Johnson regarding a WPO tournament director's take on another cheap tactic commonly employed in games - though I doubt most realize what they are doing is actually unfair:

Don't be Guilty of Barber-Poling and Peacocking

That's a shame that jerk resorted to those shenanigans, I'm sorry it happened to you. Next time bring your own little black bag (filled with loose change - I find nickles work quite well) and whack him upside his smug head!



Pappy
Posted: Tue, 02/20/2007 - 8:10am

He had the chips IN the bag? How do we know he didn't have more chips in there than what he started with?

Forget mucking the hand...this is out and out cheating...he should have been disqualed.



pokergrrl
Posted: Tue, 02/20/2007 - 8:24am

Clarification: The chips were under the black bag, he had to pick up the bag to grab the chips from under it, not in it. If they were in it, it would have been even worse. Either way it is just not right. Thanks guys!



Shortround
Posted: Tue, 02/20/2007 - 10:37am

A player is obligated to make his stacks clear to all players at the table. That means they should be orderly and arranged by color. He is NOT required to state what he has left if he chooses not to do so in which case the dealer is required to count it.

Barber poles, hiding the big chips behind smaller chips or mixing them into the smaller ones or standing them on edge behind taller stacks is bad form and in most tournaments it is illegal.

In this case the player cheated pure and simple. Intentional or not I don't know but they cheated nonetheless.



thepokerpubstl
Posted: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 5:39pm

In St Louis, we had run into a problem like this awhile back.

The solution: All chips must be on the poker table felt at all times, not next to the table or under a black bag!! Any chips removed from the felt are disqualified!!

This rule was set in place, not so much because of cheating, but because of people taking their chips to the bathroom/ bar with them and later finding extra chips in their pockets. It , also, allows all the players at the table to get an accuate chip count at all times!!



armand33m
Posted: Mon, 02/26/2007 - 7:28pm

In a casino tournament, any chip not clearly visible to either the opposing players or the dealer can be removed from play at any time.

The only thing you can walk away knowing is that you still pushed your money in with the best hand... and quite honestly, should have made that same play regardless of the situation based on the betting to that point. The outcome of the cards may have sucked, but you made the right play.



CheckitOut
Posted: Tue, 02/27/2007 - 1:15am

Actually, the best play was made at the time, going all in, looking at a "supposedly" short stack who would most likely need to have a very good hand to call the rest of his chips.

The bet made was a "position" bet based on the amount of his opponents chips "showing". So, I doubt this person would pushed all in with good but not great cards, if the "chip cheaters" other 15,000 in chips was visible.



pokerdouche
Posted: Wed, 02/28/2007 - 5:11pm

I have a little black bag, But it doesnt hide 5k chips it hides other things!



34o7pdV
Posted: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 11:28pm

Hiding chips is a tactic called barber polling or rat holing. It is intended to put an opponent at a disadvantage on purpose. Although some casinos have HOUSE rules against this practice, in many places it is not considered cheating it is called "Angle Shooting". It would depend if your paticular House has a rule against this practice. So, because Poker Pub Does Not have a printed rule against this practice and Poker Pub has not listed this issue in its printed rules, this is not cheating. It is a very smart player taking advantage of a gray area. The solution: When playing "Big Bet " poker, it is up to the player making the bet, to be very cautious and take responsiblity to ask either the dealer or the player - how much $$$ or how many chips they have in the game at that point prior to placing their bet.



pokergrrl
Posted: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 11:57pm

Ohh the infamous 'printed' rules of Poker Pub - have yet to see those and the rules that are printed don't matter anyway, it is up to the Tournament Directors. It has been said on many occasions that all chips need to be visible at the final table. This should be a typical item included in the final table speech, but the TD's a lot of times have the same people at the final tables that those 'Welcome to the Final Table' speeches don't happen. This person was no rookie and has been playing for Poker pub quite some time. I have no doubt what his intentions were. From now on when I play with him I will make sure he removes his black bag from the table and for that matter anyone with anything larger than your average card guard - How sad is it that someone has to cheat at Free Poker? What does it tell you about that person.



RBasil
Posted: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 11:57am

34o7pdV wrote:
It is a very smart player taking advantage of a gray area.

What is your real name so I can be sure I never have to play against you and your "gray areas". :roll:



Pappy
Posted: Mon, 03/12/2007 - 7:47am

pokergrrl wrote:
- How sad is it that someone has to cheat at Free Poker? What does it tell you about that person.

DING DING DING DING DING

34o7pdV wrote:
Hiding chips is a tactic called barber polling or rat holing. It is intended to put an opponent at a disadvantage on purpose. Although some casinos have HOUSE rules against this practice, in many places it is not considered cheating it is called "Angle Shooting". It would depend if your paticular House has a rule against this practice. So, because Poker Pub Does Not have a printed rule against this practice and Poker Pub has not listed this issue in its printed rules, this is not cheating. It is a very smart player taking advantage of a gray area. The solution: When playing "Big Bet " poker, it is up to the player making the bet, to be very cautious and take responsiblity to ask either the dealer or the player - how much $$$ or how many chips they have in the game at that point prior to placing their bet.

DING DING DING BAT



YKCOR
barber-poling and peacocking...
Posted: Fri, 01/18/2008 - 12:49pm

Whether or not some of the action mentioned in this post are legal or not, they really are bad form. Maybe a little more time spent on gameplay rather than shady techniques and one wouldn't NEED to use the shady techniques at all. Come on, let's keep the game fun and competitive by not ruining it through the use of underhanded methods merely for the shear chance of gaining some real or imaginary advantage.

 

Rocky

"...risin' up to the challenge of our rivals. He's the last lone survivor..."



giftedmadness
funny
Posted: Sat, 01/19/2008 - 2:47am

for sure cheating but it's very funny.